Massive drop in views on kid channels

Both the FTC and YT are crooks as they reached a crooked settlement. Watch this lawyer go deep in the paper and expose this b******t:


This is specially important:

"And ultimately content creators have to go forward, have to explain, have to advocate to the FTC that this relationship that they think that they have with YouTube does not exist. Content creators do not have control over the data collection policies of Google and YouTube. YouTube can change his terms of services and any privacy policies at any time, and YouTube content creators are stuck. (...) this law, this act, does not do that. There's no reasonable argument to be made, that a content creator has operational authority, over its small little "website" on YouTube, that YouTube has that operational authority in its entirety and you don't want to cede that ground if you are a content creator. You don't want to say "hey YouTube did all those bad things, the FTC is doing all those bad things, this settlement was bunk, YouTube shouldn't have settled in this fashion"... every little bit of that is true but you don't want to stay there and say "thus content creators should hold some portion of the burden". Content creators cannot control the data collection policies of YouTube and COPPA is a data collection policies rule, so the overall thrust, the pressure should be "FTC stop frightening everyone", and it should also be "YouTube just do some steps to comply minimally with COPPA" (...) don't try to twist a given act on 1998, don't try to twist given rules from 2013 or the current rule consideration process to get at bad act things because that's not how the law does work and it's certainly not how the law should work."

Stop asking for "clearer guidelines", stop clicking on boxes and stop demanding third option boxes, fourth option boxes or a million boxes to click at, and start thinking and realize you are being used as human meat shield to protect YT from the thing they can only do (collect data), while making you liable of doing such thing (which you can't do, at any rate). Anyone playing along this crookery is a victim of misinformation and mindless bureaucratic subjugation.

This is important enough to have it's own thread because the other "COPPA threads" are filled with people still talking about guidelines and boxes to click at and that's dangerous, no one seems to be questioning the root cause. We can't let this ridiculous new normal of us being "operators" needing to call a lawyer per upload to be established into the masses, or it will only get worse, that is how the end begins. They have already planned raising this from "kids" to "minors " as a whole, and from "targeting to" to "attractive to", which means anyone would be at potential risk. This has to be stopped, and make YT face full liability of any data collection and moderation of their own website as a multi billion dollar company that actually has the resources to do so and leave content creators alone, end of.
You realize there is really nothing we can do unless YouTube allows us to, right? It doesn't matter what FTC's guidelines say unless YouTube gives us more options besides Kids and Not for Kids. Any other argument would be discussed in court on YOUR dime, in which you'd never out-money Google.

The only thing we can do is leave YouTube in droves, including the big guys, but we know the big guys won't leave and we know a lot of people will just SAY they'll leave and not do it.
 
If you are interested in hearing a good explanation straight from the FTC attorney that wrote the complaint for permanent injunction, here you go. This isn't like the youtube videos that try to prepare you for a shocking discovery and then tell you absolutely nothing. It is a little dry, but it is straight facts and provides important context. Ms. Cohen is a very intelligent and talented attorney.


So I listened to this whole thing. Nothing in it is new information or goes against anything I have said. Plus, it is only a mere opinion piece, and not a legal discussion. The FTC person is giving her opinion, not a legal argument. She starts out stating the hardcore letter of the COPPA law and the case against youtube, but then veers off into left field and makes a bunch of unconnected statements that do not line up with her original statements. I am not sure why you felt this was useful, since this woman says almost the identical same things that Andrew Smith said in the video.

Don't get me wrong Red, I can learn, but you need to give me more than just some FTC person saying some stuff that makes no sense. Show me the actual letter of the COPPA law that says that Content Creators can be sued if they do not appropriately designate their content. Don't show me the YT settlement, because that is not law, that is not legally binding to anyone but YT. It just a simple fact that you cannot be held liable for not adhering to a contract that you did not agree to. If Ford Motor Company signed an agreement with the Federal government that their cars would not go over 55 MPH, then it is Ford's responsibility to make sure people don't drive Ford's cars over 55 MPH. If a cop pulls a person over in a Ford car that was doing 60 MPH, they cannot be fined for going over 55 MPH because of the contract that Ford signed. The only way they could be ticketed is if they were driving in a speed zone that was under 60, because that would have been in violation of a traffic law, but that has nothing to do with the contract that Ford signed. So, unless there is wording in the COPPA law that says something to this extent, "Failure to appropriately designate content intended for children under 13 years of age as such shall be subject to legal ramifications", then the clause in the YT settlement is only applicable to YT.

I am really not sure why this is so hard for you to understand and why you keep pushing this point. It's like you want content creators to be persecuted by the FTC. I feel like you are actually rooting for the FTC's abuse of power on this.

I know you feel like there are content creators that were intentionally taking advantage of the children's niche on youtube, and who were knowingly targeting kids with full understanding that they were profiting from YT violating COPPA. I feel like you at some level think that this, going after content creators, is good for a child privacy and this is at the root of why you really want the FTC to be able to fine YT content creators directly. At least, this certainly seems to be at the root of your efforts here. If it is not, please correct me and tell us what your true motivations are.

I have said this before, but I feel it is necessary to say it again. Here is where I stand. The COPPA law originally was about preventing the collection of personally identifiable information on children, without parental consent. I fully support this. My problem with what the FTC is doing is that, it does ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA to stop Google from collecting data on children. This attack by the FTC on private content creators is nothing more than putting a Speed Bump in the road to prevent street racing. It does nothing to stop it and just punishes everyone who was not doing anything wrong.

Here is my huge issue with it. It unjustly punishes EVERYONE for the crimes of a few. I absolutely hate, and utterly disagree with this whole idea of "Crime Prevention through regulation". I believe in "Crime prevention through the punishment of those who commit crime." This whole thing that the FTC is doing (that you apparently agree with) is effectively criminalizing everyone, in order to try to prevent a few people from acting badly. I realize that we are not talking about the legal definition of crime here, so please do not let the grammar nazi instinct (that many people are afflicted with) take over and distract you from the forest.

Yes, there may have been a few bad actors, but the majority of content creators were not doing anything wrong. But now, the FTC has effectively criminalized all these innocent people and threatened them with life-destroying punishment, if they do not kill their business. There were a few speeders on the road, so instead of punishing the speeders, the government punishes everyone driving on the road by putting in a huge speed bump that damages theirs car and forces them to go 5 MPH in a 30 MPH zone.

Can you see just how unjust this is? Why is it not the rational thing for the FTC to go after the people that are actually breaking the COPPA law and punish them? But you see, that is not what they are doing. They are trying to prevent people from breaking the COPPA law by punishing everyone else by making previously acceptable behavior, illegal. So instead of going after just the criminals, the FTC criminalized everyone in their effort to prevent the few criminals from breaking the law.

As far as the interview goes, that FTC spokeswoman is a communist. She believes that a family earning good money is a Big Problem. She states that the richest YT channel features a child that has made millions and then says, "This is a Big Problem". REALLY? Why is a family making good money such a big problem in your eye, Miss FTC woman? Only someone who is opposed to Capitalism would think that a family earning millions would be a "Big Problem". That FTC woman is a communist and evidently does not share our American value system that was best articulated by Abraham Lincoln when he said.

"That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise."

In the eyes of that FTC woman, becoming rich is a "Big Problem" that the FTC needs to take action against and discourage by attacking anyone that dares to attempt the same enterprise.

There is nothing wrong with children acting in films. There is nothing wrong with a family working together to start a profitable business. There is nothing wrong with making content directed at children for profit (Walt Disney). The ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, thing that is illegal here is the COLLECTION of personally identifiable information on children without parental consent. No YT content creator IS DOING THAT!

Criminalizing content creators for not marking their content as "Chid-Directed", will not stop Google from collecting child data and using it. All it does is punish millions of innocent people for crimes that other people were committing, but it will do nothing to stop the few from continuing to commit that crimes the FTC wishes to prevent.

It is unjust, wrong, and stupid. It is also very un-American, as America is built on the idea of capitalism and free enterprise, and nothing is more in tune with that idea than a YT content creator trying to earn a living by starting a YT channel.
 
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So I listened to this whole thing. Nothing in it is new information or goes against anything I have said. Plus, it is only a mere opinion piece, and not a legal discussion. The FTC person is giving her opinion, not a legal argument. She starts out stating the hardcore letter of the COPPA law and the case against youtube, but then veers off into left field and makes a bunch of unconnected statements that do not line up with her original statements. I am not sure why you felt this was useful, since this woman says almost the identical same things that Andrew Smith said in the video.

Don't get me wrong Red, I can learn, but you need to give me more than just some FTC person saying some stuff that makes no sense. Show me the actual letter of the COPPA law that says that Content Creators can be sued if they do not appropriately designate their content. Don't show me the YT settlement, because that is not law, that is not legally binding to anyone but YT. It just a simple fact that you cannot be held liable for not adhering to a contract that you did not agree to. If Ford Motor Company signed an agreement with the Federal government that their cars would not go over 55 MPH, then it is Ford's responsibility to make sure people don't drive Ford's cars over 55 MPH. If a cop pulls a person over in a Ford car that was doing 60 MPH, they cannot be fined for going over 55 MPH because of the contract that Ford signed. The only way they could be ticketed is if they were driving in a speed zone that was under 60, because that would have been in violation of a traffic law, but that has nothing to do with the contract that Ford signed. So, unless there is wording in the COPPA law that says something to this extent, "Failure to appropriately designate content intended for children under 13 years of age as such shall be subject to legal ramifications", then the clause in the YT settlement is only applicable to YT.

I am really not sure why this is so hard for you to understand and why you keep pushing this point. It's like you want content creators to be persecuted by the FTC. I feel like you are actually rooting for the FTC's abuse of power on this.

I know you feel like there are content creators that were intentionally taking advantage of the children's niche on youtube, and who were knowingly targeting kids with full understanding that they were profiting from YT violating COPPA. I feel like you at some level think that this, going after content creators, is good for a child privacy and this is at the root of why you really want the FTC to be able to fine YT content creators directly. At least, this certainly seems to be at the root of your efforts here. If it is not, please correct me and tell us what your true motivations are.

I have said this before, but I feel it is necessary to say it again. Here is where I stand. The COPPA law originally was about preventing the collection of personally identifiable information on children, without parental consent. I fully support this. My problem with what the FTC is doing is that, it does ZERO, ZIP, ZILCH, NADA to stop Google from collecting data on children. This attack by the FTC on private content creators is nothing more than putting a Speed Bump in the road to prevent street racing. It does nothing to stop it and just punishes everyone who was not doing anything wrong.

Here is my huge issue with it. It unjustly punishes EVERYONE for the crimes of a few. I absolutely hate, and utterly disagree with this whole idea of "Crime Prevention through regulation". I believe in "Crime prevention through the punishment of those who commit crime." This whole thing that the FTC is doing (that you apparently agree with) is effectively criminalizing everyone, in order to try to prevent a few people from acting badly. I realize that we are not talking about the legal definition of crime here, so please do not let the grammar nazi instinct (that many people are afflicted with) take over and distract you from the forest.

Yes, there may have been a few bad actors, but the majority of content creators were not doing anything wrong. But now, the FTC has effectively criminalized all these innocent people and threatened them with life-destroying punishment, if they do not kill their business. There were a few speeders on the road, so instead of punishing the speeders, the government punishes everyone driving on the road by putting in a huge speed bump that damages theirs car and forces them to go 5 MPH in a 30 MPH zone.

Can you see just how unjust this is? Why is it not the rational thing for the FTC to go after the people that are actually breaking the COPPA law and punish them? But you see, that is not what they are doing. They are trying to prevent people from breaking the COPPA law by punishing everyone else by making previously acceptable behavior, illegal. So instead of going after just the criminals, the FTC criminalized everyone in their effort to prevent the few criminals from breaking the law.

As far as the interview goes, that FTC spokeswoman is a communist. She believes that a family earning good money is a Big Problem. She states that the richest YT channel features a child that has made millions and then says, "This is a Big Problem". REALLY? Why is a family making good money such a big problem in your eye, Miss FTC woman? Only someone who is opposed to Capitalism would think that a family earning millions would be a "Big Problem". That FTC woman is a communist and evidently does not share our American value system that was best articulated by Abraham Lincoln when he said.

"That some should be rich shows that others may become rich, and hence is just encouragement to industry and enterprise."

In the eyes of that FTC woman, becoming rich is a "Big Problem" that the FTC needs to take action against and discourage by attacking anyone that dares to attempt the same enterprise.

There is nothing wrong with children acting in films. There is nothing wrong with a family working together to start a profitable business. There is nothing wrong with making content directed at children for profit (Walt Disney). The ONLY, ONLY, ONLY, thing that is illegal here is the COLLECTION of personally identifiable information on children without parental consent. No YT content creator IS DOING THAT!

Criminalizing content creators for not marking their content as "Chid-Directed", will not stop Google from collecting child data and using it. All it does is punish millions of innocent people for crimes that other people were committing, but it will do nothing to stop the few from continuing to commit that crimes the FTC wishes to prevent.

It is unjust, wrong, and stupid. It is also very un-American, as America is built on the idea of capitalism and free enterprise, and nothing is more in tune with that idea than a YT content creator trying to earn a living by starting a YT channel.

I shared this because the attorney talking was the author of the actual complaint that was filed in federal court and resulted in the permanent injunction that was signed by the US District Court Judge. These words are coming from the actual attorney that wrote the updated post on the FTC website explaining to Youtube creators what they can and cannot do. Of course anyone is free to challenge the FTC in a court of law, but this attorney essentially has the ability to sue a content creator as a representative of the government. Is it possible to challenge and win, of course it is. I think it is relevant to hear the thinking of the person that decides to sue you or not. Maybe it is irrelevant, I don't know.

As far as my motivation, I want the kids niche to survive and continue to be a profitable endeavor. I receive no personal satisification in seeing a content creator sued by the FTC. In fact, the likelihood of this is slim to none. Also nobody is criminalizing content creators for not marking their content as "Child-Directed." Civil and criminal penalties are completely different. Any criminal matters would be handled by the Department of Justice (I understand you were using the crime word in a hyperbolic sense, but that term is very dear to some of us and I can't help to add a distinction). Whether you believe COPPA applies to content creators or not (the FTC says it does), it is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome. Even assuming arguendo that COPPA only applies to Youtube, a channel that is making kids content that does not mark their content properly will almost certainly face action from Youtube. They updated their TOS specifically to allow for such an action. They can ban your account, mark the content for you, or simply demonetize you.

I want to thank everyone for the great discussions on this message board. Yttalk is a great forum and I appreciate everyone listening to my perspective. Based upon information and belief, it appears that Youtube is listening and most my ire has subsided based on some progress being made. I now feel confident that the kids niche will be saved and Youtube is going to do the right thing. I hope everyone has a Happy Thanksgiving.
 
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I understand the frustration guys and I have tried to explain what needs to be done to save the niche.

I am not sure you do.

Unfortunately, for most (including many creators that are not on this thread) it is going to be a self-fulfilling prophecy where the FTC is seen as evil and the only remedy is through the FTC.

Threatening to fine content creators $42,530 per video because YouTube and Google are collecting data on children (something they do not control and are not doing themselves) is unequivocally EVIL!

Youtube can fix the problem and the FTC tried to get Youtube to fix the problem. Youtube chose higher profit over helping loyal kid creators. You would think that at least someone would fully comprehend that Youtube can fully comply with COPPA and allow the kids niche to continue to be successful.

I 100% agree with you on this.

These attorneys creating Youtube videos trying to argue something that is already settled is just to get views. These videos are monetized and most of them repeat the same thing. They are just taking advantage of the trend to get views on Youtube.

I totally agree and Darrel Eaves is the worst one of the bunch. But that is what he is all about, so I do not fault him. He knows how to make money on YouTube. Good for him.

The good news is that Youtube can make several changes that is fully compliant with the injunction that preserves the kids niche.

Yes and here is how. As I have said many times before

1. Move all kid's content off of YT main and over to YT Kids.
2. Aggressively promote YT kids and develop contextual marketing for YT kids.
3. Require login for access to YT main content, but not login for YT Kids.
 
Whether you believe COPPA applies to content creators or not (the FTC says it does), it is irrelevant to the ultimate outcome.

Red, you are very intelligent guy, which is why when you say stuff like this it is confusing. I have explained in excruciatingly clear detail and you INSIST on misunderstanding and misquoting me. Why? Is this intentional? It is hard for me to believe that such a smart person could possibly not understand what I have said at ad nauseam.


A channel that is making kids content that does not mark their content properly will almost certainly face action from Youtube. They updated their TOS specifically to allow for such an action. They can ban your account, mark the content for you, or simply demonetize you.

I agree. And this is the ONLY enforcement possible.


Red it is clear now that you are in full support of the FTC going after innocent content creators that are not collecting data on children. That much is abundantly clear because at no point in our whole conversation have you condemned this action by the FTC. I am sure that you have some reason in your mind that you feel it is a good thing for the FTC to punish kid's content creators for not appropriately designating their content as Kid's Content, which has nothing to do with protecting children's personal information. I cannot see how any intelligent person could support punishing hard-working people that are just trying to make a living using their talents and skill is a good thing, but I am sure you have your reasons.

I think you and I have reached an impasse on this subject. I bid you a good day and wish you Happy Thanksgiving.
 
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What part of we CAN'T collect data don't you get, Red?

If the owner of yttalk reaches an agreement with FTC about creators of threads are now collecting cookies, IP addresses, ads shown and any information on the comments and put in court for anything that goes wrong with it even tho you have absolutely no way for you to collect any of that? are you just going to assume that as a reality even tho it's factually b******t?

Give me a break. You are either against this crooked settlement, or you are against creators, is that simple.
 
Red, you are very intelligent guy, which is why when you say stuff like this it is confusing. I have explained in excruciatingly clear detail and you INSIST on misunderstanding and misquoting me. Why? Is this intentional? It is hard for me to believe that such a smart person could possibly not understand what I have said at ad nauseam.




I agree. And this is the ONLY enforcement possible.


Red it is clear now that you are in full support of the FTC going after innocent content creators that are not collecting data on children. That much is abundantly clear because at no point in our whole conversation have you condemned this action by the FTC. I am sure that you have some reason in your mind that you feel it is a good thing for the FTC to punish kid's content creators for not appropriately designating their content as Kid's Content, which has nothing to do with protecting children's personal information. I cannot see how any intelligent person could support punishing hard-working people that are just trying to make a living using their talents and skill is a good thing, but I am sure you have your reasons.

I think you and I have reached an impasse on this subject. I bid you a good day and wish you Happy Thanksgiving.

I was not going to comment further, but I would be remiss if I didn't point something out. Although I believe Youtube is now going to change course and help content creators thanks to the people some on here wanted to demonize, I want to make something clear if it was not already. I am a kid content creator on Youtube and I stand with the FTC on this. Despite knowing that this will result in a temporary decrease in revenue, I fully support this settlement. Although not the intent of COPPA (it will help clean up Youtube) and I fully believe Youtube has a plan to ensure that loyal family friendly content creators have a productive path forward. Good job Youtube. I stand corrected.
 
I stand with the FTC on this. Although not the intent of COPPA (it will help clean up Youtube)

At last, you are honest that you support the FTC going after innocent creators even though they are not violating COPPA, because you believe that the effect of punishing the innocent, is that it will result in YouTube being forced to comply. I knew this the whole time, I was just trying to get you to be honest about what your true motivations were.
 
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