DO NOT JOIN Maker Studios (RPM Networks, ParaMaker, TGS) READ THIS TO KNOW WHY!

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Please re-read all my previous post and tell me the one instance where I said that what Maker Studio did was acceptable. As you would say "...this is something that you are assuming, which is incorrect. Please do not make assumptions, let's just work with facts and with present (not imaginary) information here. For you to state that I [think that committing a crime is acceptable,] is completely ignorant of your part." I just quoted you since you are clearly a hypocrite. Anyways, I find it quite amusing that you really think that youtube like and favorite fraud is a criminal offence. Your definition clearly says "wrongful or criminal deception", but once again you can go ahead assume it's criminal stuff, which like you said "is completely ignorant of your part."

Your arrogance is uncanning. Your complete ignorance is unbelievable. You pretend like you have a grasp on this legal stuff but it's clear to all of us that all you're doing is having a cyber temper tantrum the same way a toddler would in a store when they don't get things their way. You can go ahead and keep stating that they broke the contract and that you are "under no obligation to quote" what your contract stipulates here the same way we are "under no obligation" to credit anything that you are saying.

Regardless, I do hope that you get out of your contract, and I hope you achieve whatever it is you are trying to achieve
 
If you're not doing that, why do you keep "liking" all posts where people try to make my information matter less? Also, a couple of posts ago you completely ignored the fraud stuff and focused on the support bit, like fraud isn't something serious. It's like you're trying to find weaknesses in my arguments to undermine what I'm trying to show other people. I quoted the dictionary to you and then I quoted the youtube ToS as well. If they consider it fraud and the dictionary states that it is criminal, then it is. Now the validity of that claim can only be confirmed by a judge, which neither of us are, otherwise we wouldn't be here discussing about YouTube.
Manipulation of the data to gain personal benefit is fraud according to the dictionary and Maker is doing that, so what is your problem? I mean, why are you trying to distort the definition? Do you have a vested interest in Maker Studios or something? Are you a partner of Maker Studios? I don't know, I'm just asking, but it sounds like you are defending them for some reason. I don't get why you don't find fraud allegations serious, because they totally are.

Call me arrogant or whatever, I don't care. I never pretended to have legal experience, I am simply quoting things that are facts, which are the terms and conditions of youtube and the dictionary definition. It is totally up to a judge to decide if they are breaking any laws, I never claimed to be an attorney.

It seems that you are the kind of person that takes everything the wrong way. When I said that I was under no obligation to quote, I was stating my right. I wasn't being arrogant. Where does it state that I have to post contractual information? There is even a sticky post asking not to mention anything about the contract. I made a decision to mention my split and leave the other stuff out because it is nobody's business, really. I never said "hey, help me in regards to my contract". I never asked for help, so any expectation to see my contract is foolish to say the least. I never said that I wanted to divulge the terms and conditions of my contract because I signed a NDA, but I mentioned the split to give a notion of what they were taking and what they were giving back in return, the details of it I chose to leave because they are irrelevant to the post. My OP was to inform, not to ask questions. I clearly stated that I was trying to influence people. Trying to influence is not asking a question and it is not asking for help, and it is not asking to analyse my case or my contract. You may choose to ignore this section because I said in a previous reply that it was more of a rant. Now, don't mix the part where I talk about the fraud because I clearly separated that from the part where I spoke about the lack of support. They are separate things and you're looking at them together, which is your problem.

I would be glad to see you leave the thread, I mean, what do you expect me to do? I won't change my mind about it because fraud is fraud regardless of what you think about it. It seems that you're not getting my point and you're choosing to focus on the irrelevant bits instead of looking at the serious bits, so why are you here pressing likes when other people make a comment that also don't get the part where I talk about fraud? You can't just use your biased opinion to try to invalidate mine, because everything I spoke about in regards to the fraud, I backed up with facts. You can't fight facts with opinion, you can only use more facts to prove your point, but everything you have is a "feel", an "opinion" about what I stated. Nothing you said is based on facts, so please leave the thread if you can't use facts to discuss with someone, I am not on a pub bantering with other people, I am giving information based on factually correct documentation, which is strong, while your arguments based on personal opinion are weak and inappropriate. If you change your attitude and start talking with facts and backing them up with sources, then I will take you seriously, otherwise you are the one acting like a child and I will be treating you acordingly to your actions. I feel that you're bullying me and trying to shut me up because you have an opinion that is distorted, so either change your tone and your actions or i'll be really apathetic to you.

Please re-read all my previous post and tell me the one instance where I said that what Maker Studio did was acceptable. As you would say "...this is something that you are assuming, which is incorrect. Please do not make assumptions, let's just work with facts and with present (not imaginary) information here. For you to state that I [think that committing a crime is acceptable,] is completely ignorant of your part." I just quoted you since you are clearly a hypocrite. Anyways, I find it quite amusing that you really think that youtube like and favorite fraud is a criminal offence. Your definition clearly says "wrongful or criminal deception", but once again you can go ahead assume it's criminal stuff, which like you said "is completely ignorant of your part."

Your arrogance is uncanning. Your complete ignorance is unbelievable. You pretend like you have a grasp on this legal stuff but it's clear to all of us that all you're doing is having a cyber temper tantrum the same way a toddler would in a store when they don't get things their way. You can go ahead and keep stating that they broke the contract and that you are "under no obligation to quote" what your contract stipulates here the same way we are "under no obligation" to credit anything that you are saying.

Regardless, I do hope that you get out of your contract, and I hope you achieve whatever it is you are trying to achieve
 
Really, tell me a post that I liked that says what Maker did was acceptable. And how do those post make your opinion matter less. Especially when the first post I liked said "I read your whole post, and I think you've convinced me to not use them."
The dictionary definition that you posted didn't say all fraud is criminal. What you posted says fraud is wrongful or criminal deception. It doesn't say it's criminal now does it. It's states that it could be. That's a fact. How is that distort the definition. That's exactly what it says.
Anyways, I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Anyways, I find it funny that you keep asking me to leave the thread when I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore but then you started using my name in your post like "You, "nicekid76" and some other people do not seem to understand. . ."
alright it's your right not to share you contract information. I can agree with that, but it's also my right to like whatever post I want to like.
 
Like I said, you've been pressing likes on whatever posts that try to undermine what I try to say. Whenever someone goes against me, you press like. If you're not trying to undermine me then I don't know what you want, but when someone cannot even partially accept someone else's facts, they're just doing it out of spite. You may not agree with me but you don't have to be attacking my views whenever you find a chance.

Let me make it clear AGAIN, I am not a lawyer or a judge! I am saying that it is criminal because it involves money. It is up to a judge to say whether it is right or wrong, I never claimed that what I said was the case, it is simply my belief. If you commit fraud and it involves money, then it is criminal because you are stealing and stealing someone's money is a crime. As far as things go, they broke the contract since March 2013 and they are still taking my money, therefore they are committing a crime. It's up to a judge to decide if I am right or wrong, but I am using one of the definitions from the dictionary. Only a judge can say if my definition applies or not, you can't, because you are not a judge and we are not in a court of law. I am the one making the accusation, so you can't come and say that it isn't.

This is your problem, you're trying to undermine me and it's demonstrated by the first sentence on your last paragraph "I think you're blowing this out of proportion". You have a preconception about it and you think that whatever I say is exaggerated so you really are prejudiced. I thank you for at least showing that you're not here to think objectively, you're just being opinionated so now I surely know that your opinion is biased.

I mentioned your name because I don't like people hiding behind features on websites to passively-aggressively attack others. If you have something to say, type it. Pressing "likes" to try to make someone's opinion less valid is cowardice. I think you should go work for Maker Studios, you'll fit right in. I don't usually personally say stuff like this to people unless they really cross the line, which you have done. Learn to be more respectful and less of a child, just because you don't agree with me does not give you the right to undermine what I have to say. I offered information, it is up to each individual who reads it to think and decide for themselves, it is not polite to come here and try to say that what I said isn't useful, because it obviously is, as everyone should know the two sides of the business. Maker Studios is not God's own company, they act illegally and it is my duty to fellow users to let them know about this abuse. I'm not causing you any losses by divulging this information, so you have no right to try to shut me up.

And to finish off, yes it is your right to like whatever post you want (see above, though), and it is my right to keep my contractual info private, therefore you now understand this and you'll stop trying to use this card against me.

If you don't want to continue this, just leave the thread. I promise, if you do not enter this thread again, I will not include your name anywhere or reply back to you, because you don't have anything intelligent to add, you're just opinionated against me.

Really, tell me a post that I liked that says what Maker did was acceptable. And how do those post make your opinion matter less. Especially when the first post I liked said "I read your whole post, and I think you've convinced me to not use them."
The dictionary definition that you posted didn't say all fraud is criminal. What you posted says fraud is wrongful or criminal deception. It doesn't say it's criminal now does it. It's states that it could be. That's a fact. How is that distort the definition. That's exactly what it says.
Anyways, I think you're blowing this out of proportion. Anyways, I find it funny that you keep asking me to leave the thread when I wasn't going to reply to this thread anymore but then you started using my name in your post like "You, "nicekid76" and some other people do not seem to understand. . ."
alright it's your right not to share you contract information. I can agree with that, but it's also my right to like whatever post I want to like.
 
*sigh*
let me be as clear as possible. I'm not saying they didn't do you wrong. I'm not saying that they didn't void the contract. Your problem is that you think that I'm trying to undermine you and that the post I like are undermining you. You think that I'm disagreeing with everything you're saying and that it comes from a preconceived prejudiced that I brought with me. I thought what you said was helpfully. Clearly, I'm not a coward if I'm talking to you. I didn't want to get into this argument and apparently people disagreeing with you bothers you allot. Whatever I don't even see the point in replying anymore, it's not going anywhere.
 
"The worst issue is the fact that they didn't try to promote my channel".
Unless you had some special clause in your contract, most networks do not offer promotion, they offer tools which you can use to help promote yourself. Congratulations on getting 10,000 subs in 12 months though.. In all honesty it doesn't seem like you needed them to help promote you.

I would like to start from here by saying I do not feel Maker was right with adding the feature you described and quite frankly sub4sub techniques never help channel growth anyway.

I have never heard of Makers "Exchange" feature (even searching on google right now I'm not finding anything), but usually a feature like that would come with some sort of terms you would have to accept. Even so, you have the free will to use the feature or not. The only one putting your channel in harms way would be yourself. Let me put it this way. If someone is offering meth to people walking by they might not be doing something right, but they haven't done anything to harm you. They've just offered you tools which you can use to harm yourself. Should the person offering meth be stopped? Probably... but ultimately you are the one responsible for your own actions. The feature seems like an opportunity for promotion that you are not required to participate in.

"Do not manipulate or incentivize others to click on video features, such as “Like” or “Favorite,” to improve your standing and visibility across the site. We consider these to be fraudulent clicks and/or queries."
...
"Maker Studios broke the terms of service by activating this feature on their dashboard"
Technically they did not.. they are incentivizing other people to like or favorite other peoples videos which does not improve Makers standing at all.. Networks are also NOT partners and thus would not fall under the partner program policy. I do not know the contracts Networks have with Youtube, so I would not know what could be violating the contract or terms they have or not.

"fraud |frɔːd|
noun [ mass noun ]
wrongful or criminal deception intended to result in financial or personal gain: he was convicted of fraud | [ count noun ] : prosecutions for social security frauds.

• [ count noun ] a person or thing intended to deceive others, typically by unjustifiably claiming or being credited with accomplishments or qualities: mediums exposed as tricksters and frauds."

It doesn't sound to me like they were being deceptive about what the Exchange feature offered. They also do not receive any financial or personal gain from this unless one of the features was for views that contained ads. This sounds more like negligence for not informing you of the potential consequences of such a feature. To be honest participating in the feature would not mean you were directly incentivizing or influencing people to like your videos either to improve your own standing. Seems like one big loophole to me.

"If your account is under their CMS, you can be equally liable, because in effect it becomes "theirs""
They control the ad placement and revenue of the channel which was relinquished by you to their CMS, not the content or branding or anything else of the sort. What everything comes down to is money, which is the one thing people give networks control over when they sign the contract.

"I would never intentionally put my AdSense account in jeopardy"
Your AdSense is more or less hibernating right now.. It was put on pause while your channel was connected to the networks CMS account, they don't control your AdSense. When they release you from their CMS your AdSense should be reinstated.

I do not agree with how Maker goes about their business sometimes, but I make sure to understand my rights and what my responsibilities are in every situation.
 
This thread should be sticked because there's a lot explaination of RPM that this network is bad or good.
 
Hello! Thanks for posting on this thread.

I want to address each point in the order that you posted.

1. When I posted, I didn't actually structure my post well. I didn't mean to say that the promotion issue was the most serious, I think that the fraud issue is the most serious. Thanks for congratulating me!

2. I'm glad that you don't find that right.

3. This feature was in beta. It currently isn't activated because they are making amendments to it. They switched it off at the beginning of June, I think. I get your point about using it or not. Yes, I used the feature. I used it because I trusted that the network would not break any of the terms and conditions imposed by YouTube. I thought that they were responsible enough to check everything before releasing functionality on their dashboard but alas, they aren't. I think that the distinction between drugs and features is quite big. Both the person offering the drugs and Maker knew that what they were doing was wrong and violated some sort of rule. They both decided to do it anyway. I think that the difference there is that the drug user was completely aware of what they were doing. I wasn't aware of this issue until I began reading the terms and conditions of the YouTube service two weeks ago to check for changes in regards to monetization because when my contract with Maker lapsed, I had no intention to continue because of the issue with support. I was really waiting for the contract to end, but then I found this stuff about fraud that immediately clicked with the exchange feature's description. I felt that they violated my trust and broke rules to be in a better position without being transparent and honest with me. Nowhere on the beta information they stated that this was against any rules imposed by YouTube. It was not my fault that I used the feature, when you walk into a restaurant for instance, you don't take the dish and take it to a lab and test it for salmonella or some other issue, you trust that the chef cooked your meal properly. This is the case here too. I trusted that what is currently the biggest network wouldn't do something illegal according to the ToS. I also believe that when they implement features that go against the ToS, they should come to you and say "hey, we're doing this thing, it is against the ToS, so if you don't agree with us, you have XX days to reply and say that you want out of the contract". They never did that.

4. I beg to differ. It improves their standing because you start getting all these videos on your subscription box and then you click on them and bang, all of a sudden Maker is earning money from the ads that are over the videos. If you click on like and subscribe, it messes up with the site's algorithms and places these highly-ranked videos on top of the search results, suddenly Maker Studios partners are being watched more and in return Maker is making more money via ads. But they aren't making money honestly, they manipulated the system so that the stats of their videos were artificially inflated. Those likes and subscriptions are manipulated by Maker. Remember that I mentioned that when you clicked these things, you were never taken to the video page to actually watch any of the video! Everything was done via Maker's Dashboard interface. How can you like and sub to someone without even watching their videos? This is clear manipulation and is clearly something that YouTube does not allow. Maker Studios are basically using their own clients to do the dirty work for them. They are using "human bots" instead of electronic bots. There is no distinction. It is fraudulent, it is not allowed. If you visit a website that installs software on your computer without letting you know and this software is part of a botnet that does the same thing, would you still tell me that it was the user's fault? If the user isn't informed of the implications of the feature, then the user is being defrauded. YouTube clearly states that this is not allowed. When I talk about ToS, I mean the general ToS of the site, it has nothing to do with being a partner or not. Everyone is bound by these terms. Nowhere on the page it states that MCNs have special privileges and it never mentions anything about Maker Studios. If Maker Studios has a special contract with YouTube, then they should be transparent and make this available to their clients.

5. I can understand why you think they don't sound deceptive, but I think that they do. If they don't clearly state that this goes against YouTube's rules, then they are being deceptive. Say for instance that a bank is offering you to do money laundering... Just because they didn't come and say "money laundering is against the law" does not justify their actions. The onus is on the network to disclose everything before they offer the service. It is unreasonable to expect the user to check every ToS imaginable. The networks is taking a cut of the revenue, so they have to work. Part of their work is to make sure that they are following rules and acting within the law. I am not paying them 40% of my earnings to do research for them! We had this horsemeat scandal in Europe a couple of months ago, supermarkets were selling what was marked as beef but which in fact was horse meat. The government didn't come and say "consumers shoud have taken it to a lab for a DNA test before consumption". They blamed the supermarkets for not carrying out tests. This is just an example to show that Maker Studios should not be offering something that is illegal and expecting people to go ask questions. They should be making sure that what they are offering is within the law and not breaking any rules. To say that it is my fault for using the service is unreasonable, the same way that saying that the people who ate the horse meat that was supposed to be beef were wrong, when the supplier had a duty to make sure that the product was legal.

6. As you said, what it all comes down to is money. If they changed the channel look, I would be very upset indeed, but I agree, what it comes down to is the revenue and they still hold full control over that. Nothing stops them from actually keeping 100% if they want. Nothing stops them from continuing to take 40% every month from my account after the contract is over. Nothing stops them from taking my money even though they violated and broke the contract. It is all about the money, and they do hold full control until they release my account. The other features like uploading, thumbnailing, making graphics, etc is all controlled by me, but I do all of that in order to get money at the end of the month so I can reinvest on the channel to make it better, so if they break the rules and keep my money, it's obviously an issue.

7. Yep, I am aware of the AdSense. The problem is that lack of control. I cannot view the exact earnings except on YouTube analytics. I can't break the link between my monetization and their CMS. I don't fully understand what would happen if Google banned their account, this is what worries me. Regardless, this is just one more thing, it's not what everything boils down to. There are several micro-issues that make up the macro-issue, if I can put it that way.

8. I didn't understand what you meant by understanding your rights and responsibilities... I don't know how this links to my post to be honest. I don't know if you meant to question if I do as well... if that was the case, I can tell you that I understood my rights and responsibilities, otherwise I would not have signed the contract with Maker Studios. In terms of understanding the YouTube ToS, as explained previously, I believed that the network would never release something that went against the ToS. This does not mean that I did not understand my rights and responsibilities in the scope of the ToS, I simply had a normal expectation that the network would always act responsibly when it came to someone else's money/account.

Unless you had some special clause in your contract, most networks do not offer promotion, they offer tools which you can use to help promote yourself. Congratulations on getting 10,000 subs in 12 months though.. In all honesty it doesn't seem like you needed them to help promote you.

I would like to start from here by saying I do not feel Maker was right with adding the feature you described and quite frankly sub4sub techniques never help channel growth anyway.

I have never heard of Makers "Exchange" feature (even searching on google right now I'm not finding anything), but usually a feature like that would come with some sort of terms you would have to accept. Even so, you have the free will to use the feature or not. The only one putting your channel in harms way would be yourself. Let me put it this way. If someone is offering meth to people walking by they might not be doing something right, but they haven't done anything to harm you. They've just offered you tools which you can use to harm yourself. Should the person offering meth be stopped? Probably... but ultimately you are the one responsible for your own actions. The feature seems like an opportunity for promotion that you are not required to participate in.

... Technically they did not.. they are incentivizing other people to like or favorite other peoples videos which does not improve Makers standing at all.. Networks are also NOT partners and thus would not fall under the partner program policy. I do not know the contracts Networks have with Youtube, so I would not know what could be violating the contract or terms they have or not.



It doesn't sound to me like they were being deceptive about what the Exchange feature offered. They also do not receive any financial or personal gain from this unless one of the features was for views that contained ads. This sounds more like negligence for not informing you of the potential consequences of such a feature. To be honest participating in the feature would not mean you were directly incentivizing or influencing people to like your videos either to improve your own standing. Seems like one big loophole to me.


They control the ad placement and revenue of the channel which was relinquished by you to their CMS, not the content or branding or anything else of the sort. What everything comes down to is money, which is the one thing people give networks control over when they sign the contract.


Your AdSense is more or less hibernating right now.. It was put on pause while your channel was connected to the networks CMS account, they don't control your AdSense. When they release you from their CMS your AdSense should be reinstated.

I do not agree with how Maker goes about their business sometimes, but I make sure to understand my rights and what my responsibilities are in every situation.
 
Hello! Thanks for posting on this thread.

8. I didn't understand what you meant by understanding your rights and responsibilities... I don't know how this links to my post to be honest. I don't know if you meant to question if I do as well... if that was the case, I can tell you that I understood my rights and responsibilities, otherwise I would not have signed the contract with Maker Studios. In terms of understanding the YouTube ToS, as explained previously, I believed that the network would never release something that went against the ToS. This does not mean that I did not understand my rights and responsibilities in the scope of the ToS, I simply had a normal expectation that the network would always act responsibly when it came to someone else's money/account.


I shortened the quote just for space purposes. lol

To clarify what I meant about making sure to understand my rights and responsibilities was; knowing how Maker (and other organizations) play their games I always go over everything out of skepticism making sure whatever is going on leaves me in the clear. I wasn't assuming that you don't do that. I was more generalizing that everyone should use caution in everything.

I have to say with how long your reply was, I am pleasantly surprised with your respect in addressing each point. I understand where you are coming from and you understood me, so I think I'm good with leaving things at that :)
 
Hi again! Thanks, you're likewise very respectful, thank you very much :)

Now I understand what you meant in the end of your post. And after what happened to me, I mean, this issue, I will do exactly like you. Actually I won't be partnering any networks in the future unless YouTube gives the user control. As long as the network can lock you in, I won't partner.

Thanks again for leaving your comment and for taking time to put your views across in a respectful manner! Have a great weekend :)

I shortened the quote just for space purposes. lol

To clarify what I meant about making sure to understand my rights and responsibilities was; knowing how Maker (and other organizations) play their games I always go over everything out of skepticism making sure whatever is going on leaves me in the clear. I wasn't assuming that you don't do that. I was more generalizing that everyone should use caution in everything.

I have to say with how long your reply was, I am pleasantly surprised with your respect in addressing each point. I understand where you are coming from and you understood me, so I think I'm good with leaving things at that :)
 
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